|
|
Post by DanD on Dec 21, 2004 16:58:43 GMT -5
I’ve got a head scratchier for you guys, it’s with my fishing boat and its 2004/ 40hp/4 stroke Honda engine, with three carbs.
This thing has to be the worst thing ever for starting after it has sat for more then two weeks. If it’s started everyday there is no problem, no mater how cold it is.
When you try and start it, it will crank and crank and not even attempt to fire, then after just about killing the battery it will fire on one cylinder then an other until all three are running, backfiring and coughing through the intake. After a couple of minutes it starts to run fine and you would never know there was a problem.
In 2004 Honda did away with the choke system and went with a thermal enrichment valve controlled by a processor, using an engine temp sensor as input.
I’ve tested the sensor, valve and its passageways and they are functioning according to the service manual.
Like I said though it’s not a temperature problem but a time related one.
The dealer has had it for over a month (warrantee) and I just went there and we started it for the first time in two and a half weeks.
Same old crap, this is after the tech is telling me that he has had the carbs off and cleaned them and metered them for flow. Well after it doesn’t start he pull the engine cover drains the carbs refills them. Hits the key and it fired within two revalutions. Now he’s saying stale fuel???
Have you ever heard of fuel going stale in two weeks, I wouldn’t of believed that was all he did to get it to start unless I was standing there.
He also didn’t give me any explanation of how he got the carbs off, cleaned and adjusted with out breaking the anti tamper paint on all the carb screws.
I tried to get to the Honda tech line, but they won’t talk to you with out a dealers code.
I paid 6 grand for this engine and they’re telling I have to drain the carbs if it’s going to sit for more the 2 weeks. I still don’t know what or who to believe.
Sorry this is so long but I’m pissed.
Dan
|
|
|
|
Post by Venturi on Dec 21, 2004 18:43:20 GMT -5
I’m not sure about the stale fuel theory either. It seems if that was the case it would be a common problem. I’ve left fuel in boats for months at a time and never had any problems. What’s so different about that fuel system that makes is so susceptible to the fuel going bad?  |
|
|
|
Post by DanD on Dec 21, 2004 19:30:44 GMT -5
According to the dealership it has to do with the very small amount of fuel that is in the float bowls of these carbs and the fuels that we have here, has been oxygenated with ethanol to lower CO. (that is true10% of ethanol is mandated by the powers to be)
The fuel in the tank, lines, right to the needle and seat are not exposed to the atmosphere, but the float bowls are vented and that’s were the problem is, just the fuel in the carbs is going stale.
Like I said if I wasn’t there watching I wouldn’t believe it, but the tech was so full of crap about fiscally “going through the carbs” that I just don’t know.
Dan.
|
|
|
|
Post by Venturi on Dec 22, 2004 18:44:33 GMT -5
Hmm..I didn’t think about the fuel blends you have up there. We don’t have any fuel blends at all down here in S. Carolina. I’m used to gas being gas (if you know what I mean). So I don’t have any experience with fuel stability problems and blends. I guess it makes sense but I don’t know what you can do about it other than drain the carbs, if that’s actually what’s happening.
Are there any other dealers near your area that you could contact? They might be able to confirm or deny the techs theory. If the problem is fuel related they might be able to suggest something other than draining the carbs.
Mike
|
|
|
|
Post by re-tired on May 2, 2005 23:26:31 GMT -5
could it have to do with the fuel draining down. as in the old style primer bulb.
|
|
|
|
Post by DanD on May 3, 2005 6:24:52 GMT -5
No the fuel is still in the carbs, but the last time I ran the engine after it sitting for a couple of weeks. I drained the cards before I attempted to start it, into a clear glass bottle and it actually looked cloudy and it had a funny smell to it like varnish. We’re only talking about 2 ounces of fuel from three carbs.
I took the sample to a buddy that has a reed vapor tester and tested it for volatility. Sure enough it was flat as pi$$ on a platter, poured the remaining sample on some paper and it would barley light when I put a match to it.
All the fuel that I’ve purchased for this engine has been from here in London an hour or so from lake Erie or Huron and my theory is that the fuel here has a higher content of ethanol then the port towns do. There are not as many 2-stroke engines here in town then out on the water pushing boats around and it’s been proven that ethanol and a 2-stoke engine don’t mix. It breaks down the oil and scores the cylinder walls. That’s why I bought a 4-stroke not to have to worry about that.
I’ll find out this spring if my theory is right or not, I plan on buying the first tank of fuel from an actual marina and keep my fingers crossed.
Short of that I guess I’m draining carbs at the end of the day, it’s not that big a deal with this little 40horse but it’s still going to be a pain.
I had another plan about how to stop this hard starting problem after sitting for a week and that was to take the summer off from work and go fishing every day but the wife put a stop to that in a hurry. LOL
Dan.
|
|
|
|
Post by goldsmith on Nov 13, 2005 12:17:20 GMT -5
I have read from more than one source that ethanol is more of a political fix than a boon to the environment or the vehicles we drive but I am no expert. But your stale fuel story does raise a question of curiosity that one of you guys may be able to answer. we have an old evinrude 6 horse that is about 30 years old now and we have typically disconnected the fuel hose at the end of the day and let the engine run itself out. I think most boaters probably do this. This has apparently handled the stale fuel problem on this old carbureted engine because it has started like old faithful for all this time, but here is the question. Whenever the engine is about to run dry it revs like crazy for about 3 or 4 seconds and spins like a banshee before it runs out and dies. I have wondered for a while whether this amounts to a more efficient fuel/air ratio and if so whether this condition could be forced to be the norm in a carbureted system. Maybe it is not that the same amount of fuel is creating more power but that the last remaining fuel is just mixed with more breathing room and so is delivered and combusts faster. Surely this is similar to what an injected and computerized fuel system accomplishes to gain efficiency, but it just always made me wonder.
|
|
|
|
Post by Tom Greenleaf on Nov 21, 2005 9:50:23 GMT -5
That's interesting!! I sure wouldn't be thrilled about that if it were just about to run out just when you pull up to a gas dock or regular dock.
Good reminder to get going with this. I have quite a few two stroke engines and a car I'm storing. I use stabilizers but they don't seem to work as well as they used to. I have had some luck with a product called SeaFoam - I think it best to use less than they want you to. You can always add little more.
|
|
|
|
Post by re-tired on Nov 21, 2005 20:03:49 GMT -5
for what its worth i've had good luck with seafoam products.
|
|
|
|
Post by Tom Greenleaf on Nov 25, 2005 3:07:10 GMT -5
The dry out the carb thing:
My last boat had a Chev 350 and quadrajet. Within a few days that carb was dry and I bought it new! A couple cars have done this to me too. I got used to it. Start it same day pump throttle once, - if it had been on a good run and sat for a few days I just cranked the engine and pump the heck out of it and it was fine for 550 hours and always did that. I was so used to it and it's habits that I never complained under warranty. Had a car bought new that did that same thing and lasted 250K and sold running well, and tried everything to fix that and all failed. Put in a fuel filter with a check valve so fuel couldn't be sucked back out and some other things but it stayed the same.
I was reading the post the DanD made about a four stroke Honda outboard (NOT CHEAP) that he claimed was a real pest. Hope that got resolved! Even as a tech if it's new and you mess with a problem yourself - they may notice and then it's your problem.
Just interesting that one new engine can do something like that, and another doesn't.
|
|
|
|
Post by re-tired on Nov 25, 2005 9:34:17 GMT -5
Dan, I know you guys are getting ready for the snow & ice and all that cold stuff. I have an airboat with an aircraft engine. It prefers 115 octane leaded fuel. It will run on automotive pump gas but not well. I am able to buy AVGAS at a local fuel farm . They dont play games with the fuel going into planes. Its plain ol gas. Perhaps you can buy some , I dont know your regs.
|
|
|
|
Post by DanD on Nov 26, 2005 7:52:40 GMT -5
I’m not all that sure on the reg’s either, but I think you have to have a permit to buy the stuff here. When we were still toilet bowl racing the track had avgas and they wouldn’t sell it to us for the tow vehicles. We had to literally take the racecar to his dispenser so they could see where it was going. Track rules or the governments I don’t now? As for my boat I just gave up and now I drain the carbs after a day of fishing and new the boat was going to sit for a couple of days, didn’t have any problems with starting this summer. It’s kind of a pain but I couldn’t find anybody to give me a realistic answer as to why or how to cure it. Yea you could say we’re getting ready for the ice and snow here, have a look at what got dumped on us the last couple of days. Ice fishing soon. LOL These where taken this morning, looking out my back door and from the patio door looking at the deck. Dan.    |
|
|
|
Post by re-tired on Nov 26, 2005 13:53:19 GMT -5
Went water skiing this weekend!
|
|
|
|
Post by Tom Greenleaf on Nov 26, 2005 16:49:41 GMT -5
We do that here too! Snow is water! - T
|
|
|
|
Post by DanD on Nov 27, 2005 10:36:57 GMT -5
Good one Tom.
We here have two season’s soft water fishing (skiing) and hard water. LOL
Dan.
|
|
